Embracing What Matters Most After a Metastatic Breast Cancer Diagnosis

Welcome to The Breastcancer.org Podcast, the podcast that brings you the latest information on breast cancer research, treatments, side effects, and survivorship issues through expert interviews, as well as personal stories from people affected by breast cancer. Here’s your host, Breastcancer.org senior editor Jamie DePolo.

Jamie DePolo: As always, thank you for listening. This podcast is the audio from a special Virtual Community Meetup featuring licensed clinical social worker and grief counselor Kelly Grosklags. Kelly helped community director Melissa Jenkins lead this meetup on embracing what matters after being diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. We hope this podcast brings some hope and comfort to people living with metastatic disease.

Kelly Grosklags: My name’s Kelly Grosklags, and I have worked in the field of oncology and palliative care in hospice for close to 30 years now. I love working with Breastcancer.org. It’s a beautiful partnership. They have lots of incredible things, including a podcast that is just so fantastic. For those that don’t follow me, would love for you to follow me on social media at Conversations With Kelly on Facebook and See My Grief on Instagram. We have lots of women and men that live with metastatic breast cancer that are in these communities.

So, again, today, I think what I’d like to do is I’d like to talk a little bit, and then it’s really the richness of having people ask questions and comments, because I want to make sure what I am going to talk about is what you need to hear. So, whenever I do talks like this with groups versus in a big conference, I want to make sure that why you came today gets addressed. So, you can address it via chat, and ask a question, and we have a moderator, or, the beauty of it is to ask it verbally. I will tell you that lots of times in the past, when people have asked questions, there’s been at least four or five people that said, “Oh, I had that question, too, I just didn’t want to ask it.” So, this is safe space.

And so, I was asked to come and talk about embracing what matters most. One of the things I have found in my years in working with people with metastatic disease is that their worlds can get smaller, but not less beautiful, and not less profound.

And what I mean by that is, people will often, when living with metastatic disease, cut out things that maybe they used to worry about, or maybe even people that don’t bring them to their full potential, or don’t make them feel safe, or don’t make them feel valued, or don’t make them feel loved. So, when we’re talking about embracing things that matter most, these are the people and the things that make you feel safe, make you feel loved, and make you feel valued.

This could also be your faith. This could be your support group, this could be your neighbor, your new best friends that you’ve met through the breast cancer groups. And so, sometimes, or oftentimes, what I’ve learned from working in this field is that people maybe prior to a diagnosis spent a lot of time in a relationship that wasn’t good for them, maybe valued things that, and this isn’t necessarily a judgment, but valued things that now really don’t matter, didn’t have their voice, didn’t use their voice, didn’t stick up for themselves, didn’t say no, didn’t say yes.

And I think those are important things when we’re thinking about, okay, living with metastatic breast cancer, and literally, that word, "living," is very important. I want all of us to focus on living. My years of working in hospice, I saw some of the most alive people, quite frankly, because they focused on their family. They focused on their people. They focused on the beauty of life.

I’ll never forget a woman I was working with who was living with metastatic breast cancer, and probably a month away from dying. And we were sitting on her porch, and a bluebird flew and sat on the feeder, and she said, "Look at how incredibly blue that is, I don’t know that I’ve ever noticed such a blue bird. And yet, I’ve seen a bluebird probably a hundred times in my life." So, she said, "When you’re looking at things and you don’t know if you’re looking at them for the last time, you really pay attention." And I think that that can be true of a lot of things. Birthdays, holidays, whatever that may be, to fully embrace what they have to offer is an incredible thing, whether you’re going to live one more year or 20 more years.

It helps us to be present in the now. So, we hear a lot of these cliches, "Now is what matters most," and all that. It actually is quite true. When we’re living too far in the past, we can feel depression. We can feel shame. We can feel regret. When we’re living too far in the future, we can feel anxious, and uncertain, and worried, and where we live right now is where we have the impact.

So, right now, wherever you’re at — it’s 11:22 here — and I am just noticing. Notice the chair you’re in, the bed you’re in. What is the temperature in your, in your house? What is something you’re looking at in your room that’s pretty? What is it about outside that you can notice today, even if you aren’t feeling well enough to go outside? When you look out the window, what do you notice? Those are the things that help ground us in the now, and the now is really where we have the most impact.

So, I understand many of you live with scanxiety, are worried about scans, worried about bloodwork, worried about diagnostic testing. Will this treatment continue to work? Will this treatment stop working? Will this treatment fail me — not will I fail the treatment? It’s very important in language. I’m trying very hard to teach medical people to please not use "They failed the treatment." Nobody failed anything. The treatment failed the person. So, I think it’s really important to remember that.

I am realistic, I know there’s lots of things coming up that are very anxiety-provoking. I work a lot in the grief space, and with people that have had significant loss, and they worry a lot about dates coming up. And I think we can live in that both/and…that space of both acknowledging that that’s coming up, and finding comfort in this moment and supporting ourselves. So, we’re not either/or. We’re not either living there or living here. We can both be present and very mindful in this moment, and just acknowledge that there’s some hard days coming up, but for right now, this is where I’m at.

And we talk about embracing things that matter most. That includes letting people in on things that are difficult, times that are hard. I think that’s a really, really important thing to be mindful of. We are not meant to do hard things alone as human beings, and one of the things I’ve noticed with people and living with metastatic disease is that they learn very quickly who their people are and who their people aren’t.

And so, lots of people on this call today, you may know people, you may not know some of them. But as you look around now, you have lots of opportunities of people in these squares who could possibly be a support person for you, or a friend for you. I’m amazed at conferences that I go to, especially in the metastatic breast cancer communities, where people have met online, and then they come together, and they are incredibly close, even though they’ve maybe only met one time, or no times, in person.

Our abilities as humans to connect with other people is really profound if we allow it. And not to put judgment into, well, how can I feel so close to them? I’ve never met them in person. Or, how can I really grieve her death or his death when I’ve only known them for six months? And so, another thing that I love to talk about is that I want you to really lean into and embrace what you feel, and not try to justify your feelings anymore, that if you feel a certain way, it’s valid. If you grieve for somebody, for yourself, you no longer — I don’t want anybody to feel like they have to justify that.

Society asks us a lot why and why not, and I think it’s important to just sit in the space of because. And you know, when we talk about embracing what matters most — what matters most is you, and your emotions, and the way you feel about things, and I think it’s really, really important to lean into that. I do want to open it up a little bit, because I want to make sure we’re going in the direction you’re going in, and this is where you can bring up things that maybe I’ve said that you want more clarity on, or maybe that resonate, or maybe questions that you saw this topic, and you thought, I want to go there because I’m struggling with this, or that, or the other.

And again, I really want this to be safe space for all of us to ask, and there’s a power in group. We have found that through COVID, there’s a power in group, even virtually, to be able to come together. And so, would anybody be willing or brave enough to be the first to make a comment or ask questions? You just have to take yourself off mute in order to speak.

Melissa Jenkins: You can push Raise Your Hand with the button in the chat. Okay, [Redacted]?

Female Speaker #1: In 2017, I was diagnosed with breast cancer after a mammogram. I was treated very beautifully in a great hospital, great doctors and oncology, everything was good, and I was discharged after a year of Herceptin and chemotherapy. Chemotherapy was four months, Herceptin was for the remainder of the year.

There was a big toss-up between two hospitals whether I should be receiving radiation, and the one hospital that found the cancer and treated me did not have the facility to do that, so they brought in another hospital, and they said, yes, you’re going to get 16 shots of radiation every day, for 16 days.

So, I said to them, I live about an hour and a half away, and it’s expensive to park near to this hospital. Is it possible for me to do it in the town I live in? They said yes, but they said that hospital will want to reevaluate everything and then decide whether they will do it. So, I went through that, and they said, ma’am, your breast was removed, your margins were clear, your nodes were clear. You do not need radiation.

Here is Joe Blow here, don’t know nothing about this. One says yes, one says no. I was finally told I don’t need it by the first hospital, and a follow-up, the second hospital in my town said no. So, they both agreed, no, I don’t need it.

In 2022, not very long apart, still recovering from what I had, I was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer in my brain and in my lung. The first hospital gave me, was a mammogram follow-up once a year. Everything was good. I started to travel, I start, I went back to work, COVID happened, blah blah blah, and here I am.

My question to you, and I have a lot of questions, but I know that other ladies have questions, my question to you is, and I know you can’t answer this question openly, but my question to you, should…and I’m not suing anybody, I’m not looking to sue them, I am diagnosed with what I have. I have to live with that and die with that, so, I’m asking, just for the sake of other women, I have two daughters, I have nieces, I have sisters, should there have been something there between the, some other follow-up between this, no, you don’t need radiation, yes, you need radiation, what should there have been?

Kelly Grosklags: Well, again, and I’m glad you know I can’t, I don’t know the whole story, I know…

Female Speaker #1: But I am asking this for future people. I’m asking this, is there something that I can tell my daughters, if this ever happened to you, this is what you need to push for?

Kelly Grosklags: Before I get into that, [Redacted], I just want to tell you, I’m so sorry that the trust was broken down from the medical system, and that to be able to grieve that part is huge.

Female Speaker #1: It’s very hard, and I’ll tell you another little bit. I’ll share, I had brain surgery. When I got diagnosed now, I ended up in a hospital in my town, so I’m not going out of town anymore, as much as I would have loved to go back there. Life is changed. COVID changed a lot of things. So, I got the surgery here, and they assigned me to an oncologist. That man saw me once, and said, first words out of his mouth, very cold, as though, you know, we’re buying a carpet or something, “You have two years to live.”

That was hard for me to take. You did not sit with me and treat me like a human being, explain to me. Then he says to me, "Here’s a paper for a port. Think about it and let me know."

Kelly Grosklags: What I do want to say about that is, we do the best we can do to trust, right? We trust these physicians, and hindsight is great. What you’ll want to say to your daughters and your grandchildren if this ever were to happen with them, to, for sure, whatever they can do to get a second opinion at a major cancer center. That would be the only thing that we could offer. Nobody saw this portion coming, and unfortunately, you got kind of caught in the middle of, of medical opinions.

Female Speaker #1: But this is, sorry, I want to tell you my, that I’m struggling, and I’ll be quiet in a minute. The first oncologist that I had saw me once, he talks about this port. I didn’t know that I’m going to be in this treatment for life. They couldn’t find any veins here. The first oncologist disappeared. I’ve never seen him again. I’m seeing every Joe Blow under the sun every three months. I’ve never seen the doctor again. Who do I go to? Who do I come to, Kelly, and say, "Kelly, Melissa is not doing her job. Can you get me somebody else?" I don’t do things like that.

Melissa Jenkins: [Redacted], I am going to interject, and just, I hear your, we hear it, loud and clear, and it’s so maddening, and it’s a maddening part that we have to live with, and I’m going to let Kelly take over, but we have these groups, and you should come to our groups, our regular groups. This is sort of a special one, to sort of talk about one topic, but we hear the anger and the frustration, and it is so understood.

Female Speaker #1: I appreciate that, thank you. Thank you, let me go this far, but I will stop now, because I know that the ladies…

Melissa Jenkins: You know what, I think people, like, [Redacted], to your point, you know, do you suggest other…remember, Kelly’s a social worker, and so, there’s a medical and there’s that, and I think it is a lot about trust, but Kelly, I’m going to hand it back to you.

Kelly Grosklags: The one thing I’m going to end on, [Redacted], I want to say is, you can all, and for anybody who’s struggling with feeling betrayed, or feeling not heard, is you can write letters to medical people, and you can send them if you want, or you don’t have to send them, or patient advocate, absolutely, in the clinics. But for the psychological piece, is really what I’m concerned about, is letting some of that onto paper, letting that go.

There is a benefit in handwriting, if you can. If you can’t handwrite, then you can dictate, and somebody can write it for you. We have found that typing is one thing, but the handwriting, and getting that out, getting that anger out, getting that, because it’s justified, okay? It’s justified. We know nothing can change in your situation, but maybe that physician will sit down next time a little longer with someone else. So, I’m so sorry for that.

I know, [Redacted], you have a question, and [Redacted], thank you for being brave enough to tell us about that hard…truly, so sorry.

[Redacted], do you have a question?

Female Speaker #2: Actually, I was just looking to be the next person to speak after her. Mine is on the topic we’re discussing today.

Kelly Grosklags: Yes.

Female Speaker #2: So, I just wanted to share about, I think it’s about letting go?

Kelly Grosklags: We’re talking about embracing the things that matter the most to you, and letting go can be certainly in there.

Female Speaker #2: Yes, so, I’d like to share my experience, embracing. I used to be, I think even before this year, because even after I fell sick, I was just trying to be that person. So, I’ve been, we have these family WhatsApp groups, and I was in one group where I increasingly felt uncomfortable, and I was too scared to leave. So, for a long time, you know, I’d just be scrolling down, I can’t say anything, I can’t respond. You know, nobody responds to me, so I just felt too awkward, and I was like, you know, this isn’t a good experience.

But then, it’s got my aunties, and uncles, and cousins, and stuff like that, so I thought, if she, if they see, because some of them are administrators, about 10 of them are administrators, so I thought, if they see I left, you know, there’ll be talk, and there’ll be, you know, judgment, and there’ll be very many discussions. And for a long time, I was, I haven’t been comfortable, even when I go to social gatherings, I just don’t feel comfortable.

And somehow, some time last month, I just decided I’m quitting. I don’t have to, I don’t have to be uncomfortable. I don’t know how long I’m going to live. Am I going to live my life trying to fit in? Trying to be, you know, that person, because I don’t even feel like they really, like, want to hear my opinion, or, you know, care that much. It’s just, you, you need to be here because, you know, if you quit, you know, we won’t, we won’t do this, we won’t do that. So, I’m like, do I have to be here? No, I don’t have to be. And I quit, and I felt so good about it.

Kelly Grosklags: Good.

Female Speaker #2: And I accepted myself for myself, and I said to myself, I’m not going to take any situation that doesn’t make me feel comfortable. I just will not tolerate it. If I’m going to leave my house to go anywhere. I’m going to leave because I’m going to feel comfortable and happy. I’m going to communicate with anybody, be it on WhatsApp or phone call, but it has to be because I’m in that spirit, that positive spirit. I don’t want to pick calls that are going to put me down or make me feel a certain way, you know?

Like, you’re not quite good enough, or you’re not, you know, you’re not this person, or you’re not up to this standard, or, you know, I just, I just decided I’m not taking…then I kept telling myself, I wish I had done this 20, 40 years ago. But then, I didn’t have metastatic breast cancer. I think in a way, it has helped me value the things that are important, because my life is important to me, now. It doesn’t have to be to anybody else. It’s important to me.

So, I just, you know, I just wanted to share that. It’s been an awakening call, sort of, you know, to have, to experience, especially when the, the, the low times come, and you’re feeling, you know, so weak, and you’re in treatment, or side effects, so I’m like, I don’t have to take anything more. I’m handling enough.

Kelly Grosklags: You’re getting lots of love here from the group, and lots of head nods and lots of comments. You know, that’s exactly what we’re speaking about today, and that’s so beautifully put. And you know, people might judge you for not showing up at the party, and not showing up at the whatever, and I just want you to stay true to who you are, and what brings you good, because you’re right. When you have precious time left, or at least you’re, I mean, we all do, right, but at least when you’re aware, you want to spend it in ways that make you feel good.

And you know, love is medicine. So, love is medicine, and if we don’t feel love, then that does not have — that has the potential to hurt us, not heal us. And when I say heal, I mean make us feel good, help us take risks that can potentiate our highest good, all those things. So, [Redacted], that is such a beautiful… I’m so glad you brought this up, and I think you say it so beautifully.

First of all, number one, I’m so sorry that you didn’t feel welcomed in certain groups. But I’m very, very proud of you for honoring that, and owning that, because with metastatic disease, it’s hard enough to feel the…like you say, the side effects, the fatigue, the pain, the brain fog, the fear, the anxiety, the depression, whatever it may be. Why would anybody want to add onto that? And so, you know, when people, if people push back on you, what you just say is, I’m doing what I need to do to stay well.

Female Speaker #2: Thank you. Thank you. That makes me feel, you know…

Kelly Grosklags: I can tell you resonated with a lot of people on here, by saying that. And isn’t it interesting? I wish I would’ve known this 40 years ago, and then I say to people, I wish so, too, but I’m so glad you know it now.

Female Speaker #2: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I…

Kelly Grosklags: Not too late. Not too late.

Female Speaker #2: Never too late, yeah.

Kelly Grosklags: Not too late.

Female Speaker #2: Okay.

Kelly Grosklags: Beautiful. Who else would like to…anybody want to speak to [Redacted]’s comment, or ask me a question? So, [Redacted] has a question.

Female Speaker #3: Hey, thank you. I work every day to find little joys, and celebrate all my little joys. So, and those are the important things to me. A couple days ago, I ordered eyeglasses online, never did that before, and I’ve been celebrating it. Today, I fixed the faucet diverter on my shower.

Kelly Grosklags: What?

Female Speaker #3: Yeah. I went online…yeah, and it cost me nothing. I figured out how to do it, how to re-seat the washer, and I thought, wow, I’m pretty special.

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah, well, yeah, you are. Yes.

Female Speaker #3: This is how I spend my time. I got a couple health challenges, but I’d rather celebrate the joys. That’s it.

Kelly Grosklags: [Redacted], how beautiful. Thank you. And you know what? A good shower is a really great thing. If you haven’t had a good, you know, we all know the, the showers that aren’t great, so, good for you.

And you know, you bring up such a beautiful point, [Redacted], because what we have to remember is, there’s profoundness in simplicity. So, when we have simplistic things, so, what we thought maybe once were simplistic can often become quite profound when living with an advanced disease.

So, I love that you’re celebrating that. Once upon a time, that may just have been a thing. Like, yeah, I fixed the shower, whatever. It becomes our celebration, and why wouldn’t we want to share that with people, and it makes us kind of pause and go, well, wait a minute, I was able to stand and to make their grandchildren breakfast this morning. Once upon a time, they may have taken that for granted, but it becomes the celebration of the day. And if we can find one celebration of a day, or gratitude in a moment, it’s pretty cool.

I will say, I’m not into toxic positivity. So, I am not somebody that’s going to say, "You have to think positively, and your body will feel that way." I, I’m not that way, but I do believe in celebrating moments of joy, and I have learned over and over again in my own life, and as well as in the thousands of people I’ve worked with, how simple can turn into profound. So, thank you for that beautiful example, and you rock. Excellent job.

Who else would like to comment, and speak? [Redacted], yes?

Female Speaker #4: I wanted to speak to [Female Speaker #1], but not only to her, to everybody, but just in…one of the things that stood out to me in her, in what she was saying, as she was saying, "I’m just a regular Joe Blow," and I think that’s where we all ended up, just being a regular person, living our life, and then we walked into this diagnosis. So, we didn’t know all these things about it, so we couldn’t protect ourselves the way we normally did, and I think as women, sometimes we’re programmed to have a pat response, and to just take whatever the medical professionals tell us.

Being on the boards, I’m going to say, and talking to other people, I found, wow, there’s a lot of powerful women out here that really know exactly what their diagnosis is, what their treatment is. Now they’re asking questions, "Well, why are you giving me that treatment?" Well, now, even my own self at the time, this is after getting knowledge and becoming a little bit more empowered in this journey, I started questioning my doctor.

I was getting a Zometa treatment once a month. And then, you know, one of the ladies on the board said, "No, that’s only for a certain amount of time, and then you’re supposed to go every three months. You’re not just supposed to keep doing that." It’s been, you know…and I think they would’ve kept giving me that drug, you know, I had the stage IV for seven years. I think I would’ve been, I would’ve gotten once a month for seven years until it killed me. Anita was a lady in our group who had gotten a, you know, a tongue, a jaw, TMJ from it, and she had some really bad side effects, reactions to that particular medication.

But…and this is the last thing, there’s a show that comes on TV, Let’s Make a Deal. And everybody on there is clapping, and sometimes they get zonked, okay? And every…they must’ve talked to them, the producers, before they get on there with their stupid little costumes: "When you get zonked, you know, be happy about it, too," you know?"Just say, it’s okay, I didn’t have anything,"…you know, they all have this whole rationale.

And I told my husband the other day, I was like, "I’d be so freaking mad. I put on this stupid little costume, and I’m out here, and you know, everybody’s clapping, and then I’m zonked, and I have to say, 'Oh, it’s fine.'" And I feel like that’s how the medical caretakers of us, or professionals, or whatever, sometimes that’s how they act. "Yep, you got cancer, two years, you’ll be gone," you know, whatever, thoughtful unkindness, and we’re just supposed to…it’s expected of us, is, like, "Yeah, she got a tough one. Just, you know, go get yourself an ice cream or something," you know? That’s the way I feel that we’re treated, and I’m sorry, [Female Speaker #1], that you were treated that way.

Kelly Grosklags: [Redacted], that’s really beautiful, that you brought up empowerment. I think you’re absolutely right, in that this community is so empowered. There’s nothing like a bunch of empowered women helping each other out, I’m telling you. And I do see several men now starting to join the breast cancer groups, who have been diagnosed, and the women have taken them on, and I don’t know, I don’t even think some of these men have ever been that empowered, quite frankly, than the power of women.

And that’s one of the things we want to embrace, and what matters most to us, is knowledge about the disease, because we need knowledge about this. It doesn’t only have to be scientific knowledge. It’s about, what is out there that can support me in my anxiety? What is out there, who can I reach out to? And you know, when you’re on these boards and these private groups, I’m amazed, because, unfortunately, one of the side effects can be insomnia from steroids, some of the meds, and how people can get on a group, chat on Facebook or wherever, at 2 in the morning, and receive support. But we have to be, we have to be aware of those things.

And everybody is a worthy being, human being on this call. And whether you look at yourself as a normal Joe Blow or whomever, I just want to say: You’re all very remarkable, and you deserve to know and feel treated like a human being, and have information about your disease — as much as you want, as little as you want — but to know about it, not only including the clinical trials, and the scientific knowledge, also where can I get support? When maybe the family is tired of this, or can’t show up for me, or maybe your best friend can’t show up.

So, these are really important things to embrace also. Where is support? And you happen now to be on a call with an organization that provides an amazing amount of support for women living with metastatic breast cancer. Not only the live, not only the groups, the interactive groups, but again, on their website and all that. So, feel free. Nobody is meant to do this alone, nobody. So, thank you, [Redacted], for bringing that up, and for acknowledging [Female Speaker #1], also. I really appreciate that.

Melissa Jenkins: We have [Redacted]’s hand is raised.

Female Speaker #5: Hi, everybody. So, I have been recently diagnosed with breast cancer, and then stage IV. So, it’s in my bones. So, I’m kind of new at all of this. I haven’t been on this train for a long time, maybe six months, and a lot of my friends and family and people I know have said, you know, "Dig out your bucket list, get this stuff done, do stuff you’ve always wanted to do." And so, I’ve spent some time really thinking about, okay, what has been on my bucket list?

I have a bucket list, like most people, and some of the stuff that’s on there, it really doesn’t matter anymore, because my perspective is changing. I know that my husband and I are radically different travelers. He’s a five-star and I’m about a two. I’m a hostel person, and he’s a fancy-hotel guy, so trying to find a way to, you know, okay, let’s compromise, let’s make some memories, and I finally sat down and thought about that, and thought, "Do I want to spend all that time and money on a trip or an experience that might be okay? Or do I really want to spend my time doing things that I know bring me joy every single time I do them?"

And I’ve kind of come to the decision that, for me, I want to find that joy every day. And I find my joy in cycling, and paddling, and hiking, and climbing, and all of those things. Sadly, my husband does not. We got married very late in life. But I know that I need to do those things for myself. I need to include him on some things, for sure, but I don’t know how long I have. 

You know, the doctor said, "We’ll try and get you five years if you’re on these meds." Those meds have been breaking my immunity, and it’s just been terrible. So, I’m off of those. I’ll take less time for better quality, but if I have less time, I better get it done now, because I might live longer, but I’m ramping up for this year to be the year that I go play, the year that I do as much as I can. If I get more after that, bonus. If I don’t, that’s okay. It sounds kind of crazy, because everyone looks at you and goes, "Okay...," you know? But I think it’s the right decision for me, I hope. It feels like it is.

Kelly Grosklags: Then that’s what matters, and that is such a beautiful share. You have to give grace to yourself, too, because you’ve only been doing this for six months. So, you’re not quite sure, you know, there are many women on this call that have been living with metastatic breast cancer for years, and probably — and I would love to hear from some of you, you’re the experts — probably thought they were going to die in a year, or two years, or whatever, and here they are years later.

You know, you’re never going to look back and regret enjoying your days, ever. And so, even if your mindset is, you know — what I encourage people, quite frankly, is — we don’t necessarily want to have the mindset of, I’m doing this because you’re going to die. I’m doing this because I enjoy it. And it’s such a beautiful way to approach life. Because I will tell you that, we all know this, every six months, something’s coming out, regarding breast cancer. And so, hopefully there will be some medications that you can tolerate, but what you said is a very important part.

Even if you had a limited life expectancy, you’d rather take quality time, embracing and enjoying life, rather than an extended amount of time suffering. Is kind of, is essentially, I mean, I’m paraphrasing it.

Female Speaker #5: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Grosklags: So, my hope for you is that you allow yourself to learn each day what it’s like to live with this new different. I don’t use the word normal, just, that’s a personal thing, because there’s nothing really normal about having cancer throughout the body, or nothing normal about losing a child, or nothing normal about losing a spouse. And so, I use the word "the new different," this is the different way of living. People can use normal if they want. That’s just what I refer to it, that’s how I say it.

And I just think you sound very firm in what matters to you most, and I think that’s such a beautiful healing, and such a beautiful learning, and sometimes people don’t get that until something really traumatic and big happens to them in life. I mean, that’s just very common. So, good for you. Keep cycling, keep paddling. You and your husband will learn ways to come together, and then, life is also about living it in our own individual footsteps, too. So...

But give yourself grace. You’ve only been doing this for six months, you know? Next year at this time, you may value different things. It’s important that we all tune in, and go, "Does this feel good to me?" Even when maybe other people are saying, "Oh, you shouldn’t do that, or you should do it differently, or do it this way, or do it that way." You’re right, you become your own expert, and we all have always been our own expert. But when there’s something like this, you really stand true, or hopefully stand true in what feels right.

So, I say keep going. I don’t know if other women would like to chime in on…since [Redacted] is newly diagnosed, maybe your thoughts on that for people that are on the call.

Female Speaker #6: For the people that are new here, I just wanted to give a shout-out for UniteForHer.org, and I’m going to go ahead and just put that in there. They’re a wonderful organization, they have nutrition counseling, they have, they, they record, you know, recipes, and you can look at them later, and they’re just a really good, good information source on a lot of things.

Melissa Jenkins: Thanks, [Redacted], so much.

Female Speaker #7: Well, I think a shout-out should go to Breastcancer.org, and I love the support group that we all attend, or many of us attend, and Melissa is a facilitator. So, if you have not attended that yet, it meets on Mondays and Wednesdays for, I think there’s one on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. So, that’s been really helpful for me.

Kelly Grosklags: [Redacted]?

Female Speaker #4: I just wanted to share about the amount of time. I was originally diagnosed, in 2003, with stage III breast cancer, and then it came back in 2017. So, from the beginning, didn’t know anything, so I just assumed cancer, you’re going to die, type of thing. And then, you know, I kept living.

When it came back stage IV, again, I was thinking I would die. My point was that both of those times, the second time more, with the stage IV diagnosis, I did say, you know, "Let me see, what are the things that I want to do while I feel this healthy?" Because even though I know the doctor couldn’t tell me when I’m going to die, and all those things, but I know how I feel right now.

And if I felt good enough to go and travel, or any of the things that, you know, make me feel good, I want to do them while I feel healthy. So, you know, even, you know, well, then we had COVID, of course, but you know, not being reckless or anything like that, but I just did, I really tried to identify the thing, mainly family things, but it involved traveling, and you know, you have to feel…I tried to do that as normal.

I knew I didn’t enjoy working so much. I like it, I like money, and I did enjoy my job, but I would rather be with my family. But it’s personal for everybody. Some people like their career, or maybe they just have to stay doing that. But that’s all I wanted to say, is definitely, you don’t know how long you have, and it still stays in your head. It’s always, like, this cloud, like, this is going to, you know, kill me eventually, or, you know, I’m going to get sicker eventually, or I may have progression eventually. But for right now I don’t have those things, so I’m going to just enjoy this walk in the park, or ice cream, or whatever.

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah, I think that’s a beautiful way to talk about one of the things of embracing what matters most is being really intentional about our living. And again, the things that we just would take for granted, eating an ice cream cone, or going for a walk in a park, or whatever, it can become, again, very profound, when you have intentional ways, when you really stop and pause, and be mindful. And again, I think it’s, it’s very natural to think that way, you know?

You don’t know how long you have to live. I also think there’s really a benefit of just enjoying those things just because. And not always having the, because I don’t know this, when I’m going to die. It’s this, just this embracing this beauty because it is, and the mind will appreciate just doing that. The subconscious and the conscious mind will really feel comforted and soothed by just appreciating that beauty, and of course it’s natural for everybody living with metastatic disease to think, "Well, I don’t know if I’ll ever have this again." And that’s where we want to really try and work on just embracing the beauty because it is, and not have to torture ourselves with, "Well, because I don’t know how long, I don’t know how long, I don’t know how long."

It just makes a, just a soothing difference. Doesn’t matter we…of course I want people to talk about their fear about the terminal illness and life expectancy, but the thing I’ve learned working in, with breast cancer for 30 years, things are a lot different now, and there’s no determining, really, it isn’t. I mean, it’s, and I don’t say that as Pollyanna. I say that as truth. We don’t know. We’re making advances in other cancers, too, but maybe try on, for today, when you think about embracing, maybe we try on, when we’re out for a walk, and enjoying even — I live in Minneapolis, so there’s not a lot of buds on the trees, but somehow it’s going to be 57 here next week. I’m not…I don’t know that that’s a good thing, but it is — but maybe today, when you go for a walk, or even if you can’t go for a walk, and you look out the window and you see a bird, that bird is really serene and beautiful, period. When you’re eating your meal, this, this spicy soup actually tastes really good, period. When you get to go out with friends this weekend, this is a really fun party, I’m really enjoying this today, period. And I just think, just to embrace and lean into the beauty can be very soothing to our nervous system.

And we torture ourselves a lot, maybe intentionally, maybe not intentionally, I don’t know. I do it often, with a worry I might have about one of my kids, you know, or something, instead of just embracing the moment. The anxiety comes knocking on the door, and for some reason, I let it in, but I would like to just, in the moment, sit with it for a little bit.

[Reading from the chat:] Oh, [Redacted], never came home, he was only 59. I’m so sorry about that, Fay. What was your dad’s name, [Redacted]?

Female Speaker #8: Ed.

Kelly Grosklags: Ed.

Female Speaker #8: But that was my…I was 24, my sister was, like, 23 when it happened. So, yeah, so you never know, you know?

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah, what happened?

Female Speaker #8: He had, he had a massive heart attack.

Kelly Grosklags: You never got to say goodbye.

Female Speaker #8: No. No, and it was back in 1977, so they didn’t have all the things that they do, you know, later on, so, it’s been a long time.

But Kelly, I…the people who are here know that I’m very optimistic. I, like you say, there are things being discovered so often, and new things being developed, and when my body decides that the Verzenio, that they, it builds up an immunity to the Verzenio, that there’s going to be something else for me to try. My problem is that I have this fear of being among a lot of people, and catching COVID.

And we love to cruise, we were unfortunately on a cruise in 2020, in March, and got stuck on the cruise because of COVID, for an extra two weeks, and my husband had a very bad case of COVID. I got COVID, but had no symptoms, was left with fatigue for months and months and months, and that was before I was diagnosed. I was diagnosed in ’21. But I would do a lot more things if I wasn’t so scared of catching COVID, and I don’t know that I would.

We do have a cruise planned in two weeks, but I am nervous, and I am bringing enough masks to, to outfit more than just myself and my husband.

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah. Yeah.

Female Speaker #8: And plan to wear it when I’m around people, and I, how do I get over that fear? I don’t have a fear of dying. I don’t think that, you know. I want to be able to enjoy more things in groups, and not have to rely on that mask, and…and staying away from people.

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah. And I, [Redacted], I think, you know, your fear is shared by a lot of people. And you know, the thing is, we’re in 2024 now, we really thought by now this would be a, a thing that we would talk about in the past, right, like polio, or something. And it continues to surge in certain parts. It looks like Breastcancer.org has podcasts, I don’t know if you’ve listened to that, I don’t know the details about that, but COVID and MBC. You know, one of the things I will say is, I think you’re doing what you can do, and I think that’s what we all live with. 

You know, I work with people that are scared they’re going to get hit by a car, or get in a car accident, and they have valid reasons for that, because of traumas that have happened, but they do what they can do. They get in a car, they drive safely, they put their seatbelt on. You know, they don’t drive when it’s real crazy times of, on the road, those things. You’re doing what you can do. It’s okay to have that natural fear, because it probably protects you in some way. Makes you wash your hands more, makes you possibly wear a mask.

You know, I’m glad you’re still leaning into the cruise. You know, we weigh the benefits and the burdens of everything.

Female Speaker #8: You know, but my husband doesn’t totally agree with what I’m doing, as far as wearing masks.

Male Speaker: Hello

Kelly Grosklags: Oh, and he’s right there. I love that, he’s right there.

Female Speaker #8: Because I suggested he listen in on this, and I didn’t know that I was going to bring this up when I asked him if he wanted to listen in on it, but he thinks that I’m, what’s the word you want to use, I’m being too paranoid about it? Is that…?

Male Speaker: I don’t know. I, I think she’s being too fearful. I mean, the reality of the situation isn’t the same as what it was at the outset of COVID. How much more different is it than the flu at this stage, and if she wants the mask, that’s fine. I’ll try to mask when I’m in crowded spaces, but I won’t mask in open spaces. She thinks I’m an extension of her, and if I get something, she will get it, and get it worse. The reality is, when I got it, I got it worse, and she got nothing, or very little.

Female Speaker #8: Well, but I was, I was positive, and I, I stayed put, and we’ve been, we have been vaxxed, and boostered, and everything like that.

Kelly Grosklags: I’m glad you’re compromising, and I think, you know, everybody has to do what they’re comfortable with. So, I…

Female Speaker #8: And you know, if I get it, then it means that I may have to come off my meds, and that would be a concern to me also.

Kelly Grosklags: And that’s a big concern. That’s a big concern. So, you’ll do whatever you can do to stay well. I just, I would say that, that you do whatever you can do to stay well, and you know, it’s always so hard, because I can see from your, our family's perspective sometimes is different than the perspective of the person living with it. So, I think you just, you guys have to do what you’re both comfortable with, and I’m still glad you’re going on a cruise.

I think a lot of things, too, is try to do some things, things, if the worry gets real intense, what do you do to soothe yourself in that moment for worry? You know, what are your tools to try and kind of relax the mind, relax the body, those kinds of things, so that you can still enjoy the trip.

You know, I will say, I was on a cruise about three months ago, and there is so much protocol about washing hands, and…and all of that, that it’s just…I know it’s airborne, but still, the handwashing is good for the flu and all that. You can’t turn a corner without a whole station of people telling you to wash your hands. Just the hand sanitizer, it’s literally sinks, where you’re, like, washing your hands. So, things have really changed on cruises since prior to COVID, that I’ve noticed. People are somewhat more mindful of it, but my hope is that you go, and you don’t come home with anything.

Female Speaker #8: Thank you.

Kelly Grosklags: That’s, that’s the group, that’s the group mindset for you, [Redacted].

Female Speaker #8: Okay. I appreciate that.

Kelly Grosklags: Have fun.

Female Speaker #8: Thanks.

Kelly Grosklags: Embrace the fun. So, we have a few more minutes. Anyone else can bring something up, or want to talk?

[Redacted]? By the way, I love your artwork.

Female Speaker #9: I wish I did do it. It’s my grandchildren.

Kelly Grosklags: Oh my gosh, I love it.

Female Speaker #9: Thank you. I have it all over the house, and things my kids did, too, when they were little. Most of my artwork is from my, from kids.

I’ve slowly been working around understanding, or trying to get a handle on how I can get more meaningful things in my life, at this point. And with that, the idea that meaningfulness is different depending on what stage you are in your life, when you’re diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. 

The first time I was diagnosed with cancer, and it’s lobular cancer, so, it’s just coming into the research consciousness in the past five years or so, and there wasn’t a lot known about it 20 years ago, well, now 25 years ago, when I was first diagnosed in my early 50s. And at that point, when I first had cancer, I was stage III, and they never did get clear margins on me. But I had a son that was just starting high school, and I was very determined, and there wasn’t even a question of what was meaningful in life.

I had a job to do, to raise my, to be mother to a child. And high school’s a very difficult time, freshman year in high school, very difficult time for kids, and my son wasn’t an easy kid either. So, it took a lot of effort. But now, being 74, and having survived for five years, and not really changing. Lots of fatigue, I have lots of fatigue, there are days I can sleep 18 hours a day. I have GI issues, where I’m afraid to even leave the house because of what may happen, you know, in terms of diarrhea with the medication.

And I was working full-time until the time I got diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer, I was 69, and I planned on working one more year full-time, and that was really meaningful to me. My job was hard. There were days I hated it, but I loved what I was doing. It was, I felt like I was doing what I’m finally meant to do, and it wasn’t in my degree realm, even. And you know, and thinking about retirement, I was thinking about, you know, volunteering, and doing some, you know, going, taking classes, going and living in New York for a few months, and taking a class at NYU or Columbia, just for fun.

And even with the volunteering now, I feel, I feel so intensely that I want to be doing those things, but I can’t make commitments, because I could wake up in the morning and not be able to really leave the house, because of the GI issues, or so fatigued that I can’t stay awake. And to volunteer, you’re making a commitment. You know, I can’t let people down, you know, if I’m going to do that. So, I haven’t really been able to actualize any of those things I thought I would do in retirement, and it’s been really hard to find out, you know, find ways to get that meaning back in.

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah.

Female Speaker #9: And it also, with friends, I’ve always had a lot of friendship through work. I have a lot of friends who’ve died in the past couple years, and I have a certain level of guilt about that. Here I am, five years after being diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer, where me and everyone thought, except for my doctor, that I would be dying any day, you know, within a, a year. Five years later, and you know, some of my male friends have died of sudden heart attacks on vacation.

I lost my best friend last year to a chronic illness, and I have some guilt about that. You know, I’m still, here I am, living, and except for cancer, relatively healthy, you know? And…and why am I still here, and they’re not, and how do I bridge that gap with people who are, you know, casual friends, where very few people even understand what metastatic disease is.

Melissa Jenkins: [Redacted], let’s let Kelly address some of that, you said…

Female Speaker #9: Yeah.

Melissa Jenkins: …great stuff.

Kelly Grosklags: I think, first of all, [Redacted], thanks for sharing all that, and I’m so sorry about that, those GI side effects are so real for people, you know? And I know a lot of people that are scared of them, because they can hinder on the dignity part, too, like if something were to happen, right? So…

Female Speaker #9: Exactly.

Kelly Grosklags: …what I think is important is, still sign up for the volunteerships, letting them know that there’s a chance. I still think it’s okay to say, I want to volunteer, but the morning of, it might be hard. I think it’s also important to note, some people get to really know their time of day that’s better, that, if it’s morning, sometimes that’s better for people, vice versa, the afternoon, whatever it may be. And so, we skip those morning things. A lot of people will volunteer, with GI stuff, they might volunteer at, like, noon, because they’ve had breakfast. They kind of know what it’s like.

So, keep searching. I don’t want people giving up on, on things, but I, volunteering is a, is a beautiful way to embrace what matters. And yeah, I’m just so sorry for the GI, and thank you for bringing that up. I really, I appreciate that so much.

And I saw one more, I thought there was another…

Melissa Jenkins: [Redacted]?

Kelly Grosklags: [Redacted], okay.

Female Speaker #10: Hi. So, I’ve been thinking the whole time that I’ve been on this, like, how to try to word what my issue is, and I finally just thought, let me just talk about it, and just say it. So, I feel like, like, it’s kind of like what [Female Speaker #9] just talked about, you know, that, I mean, my issue is that I’ve been a women’s health practitioner for over 25 years, and I’ve been a midwife for over 25 years, and my, a lot of my personality and my, what I identify with is helping people, women for the most part, navigate healthcare.

And now, I’m that person that’s navigating healthcare, and I have been for four years, and it’s been a very interesting switch. And it so happens that six months before I got diagnosed with what I refer to as regular breast cancer before I got, which was four years ago, and then two years ago it was metastatic breast cancer, I started working as a faculty member at a nursing school. And so, it’s a different way of advocating, and I have been on different support groups.

This is my absolute favorite, since I’ve…and I hate being metastatic breast cancer, but I love the fact that I get to be on this support group. But one of the things that really makes me feel other, or different, or alienated from these groups is when…and I support people who are having a tough time with their healthcare provider, and what they have to go through. But I, I really feel alienated when there’s a lot of issues surrounding that, because I know how hard people try, and not everyone’s perfect.

And we don’t, and I haven’t been the perfect practitioner, and there are times when I’ve been insensitive, or I thought I’ve known what’s best for someone in the situation, and for the last, I’d say eight years in my practice, I’ve had my own practice with a business partner, and I did home birth here in New York City, and you know, had a lot of, and you know, people had very strong opinions about what they wanted for their healthcare, and then it didn’t always go the way they wanted it, you know?

And so, I have to accept the fact that I can’t be doing what I feel very passionate about, like, you know, accept, you know, so, that’s why I identify with what [Female Speaker #9] was talking about, like, wanting to do something, but then, like, physically, like, I mean, I can sometimes barely make it, you know, through a semester, and I just do it one semester at a time, and I just started a new semester yesterday, and I’m planning to get through this one, and the only thing that keeps me going is that when I do start the new semester and I look at all the smiling, I get seniors, because by the time they take maternity in nursing school, they’re senior years, and I get the senior nurses.

And I think, if I get really frustrated with them, which is quite often, and I, I, and I think, like, you know, how, how are you going to get through this? How are you going to do this? I think, no one goes into it because they’re looking for the money. No one goes into it because they’re looking for, you know, the prestige. You know, they all go into it because, you know, they, for good or bad, they want to help other people, and…and that keeps me grounded, and…and I remember that, like, I’m doing good to help them.

So, I don’t know. So, I feel like that was all over the place, but I really felt this need to share this, because I do sometimes feel very alienated, and…and I know, I know that people, I want the best for…I mean, I’ve gotten so close, I’m, I’m on the Monday group, you know, occasionally, not so often, I’m on the Wednesday group just about every Wednesday, and…and I’ve come to, like, want the best for everyone. And then, and sometimes, we don’t always get that, and that can be heartbreaking. So, that’s all I had to share. Thank you for listening to me.

Kelly Grosklags: [Redacted], thank you, and I, I really hear you. I think you can have space for both of it. You can have empathy for your fellow sisters and brothers who maybe weren’t treated well, for whatever reason, and still really be proud of the medical field that you work in, and all that. And I think, you know, the one doesn’t have to cancel out the other, but I, I think it’s really important for all of us to remember, too, that they are human beings who are providing the care for us, and are not always going to do a great job.

I am a big, firm believer, too, that if, if people don’t feel trust in their medical provider, that they find another one. And kudos to midwives. Midwives delivered both my babies, so, thank you for what you do. It’s a very scary, and intense, and beautiful job, all of it. So, thank you for what you do, especially given all that you’re trying to maneuver in your own medical story. So, really appreciate that.

You know, it’s just such a beautiful group of, as I’ve watched all of you really lean into each other, and…and support each other. And again, when we started off this call, I wanted everybody to know that this is a safe space for people to be able to talk, and do things, and we don’t always have the ability in our personal lives for people that “get it,” as much as maybe some people do in your support group. Again, I, you know, sometimes our people do the best they can do in our lives, and…and we can love them for that, but we may not be able to get everything from our people.

And so, I, I think that one of the things is embracing all the options, too, that we’re given. Very fortunate to live in a society that has lots of options of support, and to never have to apologize if you need more support than you’re getting from your family or your friends. I hear that a lot from people. They can be very disappointed. You know, our people love us deeply, and sometimes it’s really scary, and they don’t know how to support. I also think the longer people live with this, and you know this from when you were first diagnosed, to maybe where you are now — when you’re first diagnosed, everybody comes in. "What can I do, what can I do, what can I do, what can I do, what can I do, what can I do, what can I do?" And then, as time goes on, it becomes kind of this thing that people forget, that you’re living with it. You, you know it every day, but it’s the same when there’s been a significant loss, and for those of you that have had significant loss will know this. In the beginning, everybody is on board, "How can I support you?" And then, people kind of go on with their day, and they forget that we’re living in this intense sorrow.

And so, you know, whether we have the energy or not, sometimes we have to be in charge of letting people know really how we’re doing. So, I am just so grateful, yes, and the ghosting, thank you for putting that up. They…I was interviewed by Breastcancer.org about cancer ghosting, and how do we respond to people that kind of leave our lives. Sometimes they give us warning, sometimes they don’t, and when I say leave our lives, meaning they’re still living, but they’ve kind of left our, our sphere of support.

Does anybody else have any final questions before I do a reading? [Redacted].

Female Speaker #11: I just have one final comment, if I may, and that is that I write in a gratitude journal every morning, and I think when you are thankful for what you have, sometimes it really helps you refocus, so, that’s how I focus my day. Well, what am I grateful for? And it can just be, you know, the smell outside, or, just little things, every day. I just try to pick two or three things, and it really makes a difference in my life.

Kelly Grosklags: That’s beautiful.

Female Speaker #11: So, if you get lost in, you know, all the scary things, I think it redirects your energy.

Kelly Grosklags: That’s so beautiful, and I love what you said, the smell outside. It doesn’t cost us money, we don’t have to, you know, bathe in a bunch of expensive things. So, thank you for saying that. Beautiful. Anyone else?

Female Speaker #1: I just wanted to say something positive, even though I started out with a whole load of, truckload of pain. I just received this this morning, my brand-new passport.

Kelly Grosklags: Ah, nice.

Female Speaker #1: So, my passport expired, and when I was filling in the form, it asked, do you want five years or 10 years? I chose ten years. By the grace of God, my lord and savior Jesus Christ, I hope he allows me to use this for 10 years.

Kelly Grosklags: That is a beautiful, beautiful intention. I love that. Congratulations.

Female Speaker #1: All of you ladies, I love you. Don’t know you fully well, but I love you, and I, I identify with all that you’re going through. We all have those moments. I sang in a choir this year, and was scared to get up the platform, but God got me up on platform, and I sang. Did I sing well? I don’t know, but I did. So, all those little things, I am grateful for the sunshine that peeks through the window every morning when I go in the kitchen, is welcoming me.

Kelly Grosklags: That’s beautiful, [Redacted], thank you.

Female Speaker #1: A simple flower in your garden.

Kelly Grosklags: Yeah.

Female Speaker #1: So, look for those little things. Yes, we are different people, but we’re still children of God, so, focus on the best.

Kelly Grosklags: Thank you. I appreciate that.

I’m going to end by doing a reading. Again, I’m so grateful for all of you, would love to see you over on Conversations With Kelly, or See My Grief. I also have a podcast titled See My Grief, and I’ve been fortunate enough to be interviewed a few times by Jamie and the folks over at Breastcancer.org. You guys put on a beautiful, beautiful podcast.

So, I’d like to end by this, and if you feel comfortable, just close your eyes and put your hands over your heart. This is a really nice way, when you want to soothe yourself or take in love. So, if you feel comfortable, and I’m just going to read these words:

You find yourself beneath a canopy of trees, with broken branches, covered with moss tangled at your knees. Rest assured, the forest does not crawl on forever, but you must begin the journey here. For this is the time, this is the time to come alive, to walk tall with a beating heart and wide-open, mid-day eyes, to surrender here, in the green.

For you are still free to travel free. Without knowing everything, humbly following the traces of daylight, even though the path is unmarked, even though this was not a favored start. This is your only hope to make it through precisely here, pushing through the land of the unknown, you will find your home in hope. So, for now, while you are here, turn your attention to the lessons of strength this present forest will offer you.

So, so much love to all of you as you travel through your forest. I know that it was not the start of the forest that you would’ve wanted, but here you are in this forest, amongst these trees and amongst these beautiful women, and Breastcancer.org. And you are all traveling, you know, an incredible way. 

This book, by the way, has been very, very supportive and loving in many occasions. It’s called All Along You Were Blooming, and it's by Morgan Harper Nichols, All Along You Were Blooming by Morgan Harper Nichols.

It has beautiful artwork, if you can kind of see, it’s hard to see this, but beautiful artwork and just very meditative visions, and beautiful things. It’s not that expensive. I think it’s on Amazon for, like, 10, 12 dollars or something, or it’s at the bookstores. So, be kind to yourselves.

Thank you again, Melissa, for being patient with the start of the day. I’m going to go back now to try to support this emergency that’s happening, and so grateful to all of you. Be at peace, and embrace something new today when you, when you use your senses. So, thank you.

Thank you for listening to The Breastcancer.org Podcast. Please subscribe on iTunes, or wherever you listen to podcasts. To share your thoughts about this or any episode, email us at podcast@breastcancer.org, or leave feedback on the podcast episode landing page on our website. And remember, you can find a lot more information about breast cancer at Breastcancer.org, and you can connect with thousands of people affected by breast cancer by joining our online community.